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Spirodex Blog.

This is a discussion on Spirodex Blog. within the Supplement Reviews and Logs forums, part of the Supplement Discussion category; I am a stim junkie. I try to convince myself I will quit one day but then some new formula ...

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    Spirodex Blog.

    I am a stim junkie. I try to convince myself I will quit one day but then some new formula comes out and I realize that by thinking I was going to quit I've actually accomplished a tolerance reset so I'm ready for my next run.

    When I saw how excited Bruce Kneller was over his stim formulation (even giving off the impression that he and Deserusan have each formulated their own stims for Gaspari and each believes his is superior), I was interested.

    As a recovering meth -- excuse me, Slim Xtreme addict (over one year clean now by the way [applause] ), I was interested in his claim of a once-daily dosage and an all-day feel.

    I kept pestering him to let me buy a bottle, as some of my pathetic stash pictures have proven that I have no problem purchasing an interesting product. He kept responding that I could have a free bottle if I'd simply blog daily about the product. I preferred to purchase it without conditions, but the next thing I knew I had a free bottle arrive at my house so here we are.

    I will say that I do have a couple of reservations about the product. One, I generally work out upon waking. A major benefit for me of being "on" stims is getting the first-thing-in-the-morning, pre-workout boost. Bruce has made it clear he wants each (b)logger to take their once-daily dose at 11 AM. This is unfortunate.

    Second, is the 1,3-dymeth inclusion. I have used enough of it and haven't really experienced any side effects from it but after using it for a month straight as part of an ECA stack with MAN Swagger (which ended three weeks ago), I was hoping to avoid a daily dose of 1,3-D. Again, I did not feel any ill effects from Swagger or any of the other countless products that contain this ingredient but I also did not want to get in the habit of using it every day.

    Those qualms aside, I'm ready to go.

    What I'm looking for:
    1. Normal Stim Effects - focus, energy, alertness
    2. Crash - Generally after my third or fourth day in a row on stims like this, I start feeling completely on empty by around 8 PM...we'll see how this product holds up
    3. Appetite - Bruce referenced an expected appetite reduction, so we'll see what comes in that regard as well
    4. Mood
    5. Experimenting - Bruce asked to go 4 weeks. A bottle has 60 servings, although I get the feeling that after the first week I may want to go up to 2 servings / day. I may take a couple of days off a week. Either way, I should end up with a few servings left over. Once I use it for a few weeks and get a good feel for its effects, I may try a few different things such as taking another stim at 6 AM pre-workout before taking Spirodex at 11, or stacking Spirodex with 25mg ephedra.

    I will take one dose tomorrow morning at 11 AM.

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    Looks good man. OP brought lulz w/SX crack as usual
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    Bruce had asked that we also blog this on bodybuilding.com but they've built somewhat of a fortress to keep me out. I will try to post it there but they tend to frown upon useful in formation being posted so I'm not holding my breath.

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    Took my first dose about 45 minutes ago. If it makes sense, I suddenly feel both more alert plus more relaxed.

    Today is my first day back to work after a two week vacation from a management job so for the last 4 hours I've been hit with a lot of stresses and frustrations.

    I spent the last four hours the way I generally spend my time at work: mentally plotting the manner and methods in which I will systematically murder everyone within 100 yards of me.

    But I suddenly feel calm now.

    At the time of this writing, the body count remains zero.

    Stay tuned.

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    Combination of appetite suppression and focus: I've been sitting here catching up on paperwork and had to do a double-take before realizing it's almost 4:00 (would've taken the "under" if you told me 1:30) and that I haven't eaten anything in over 7 hours.

    It's well air conditioned here so I can't speak for any thermo effect. However usually I would've downed a gallon of water by now but I haven't had a drop. Usually a good thermogenic has me super thirsty so I don't know if this lacks that effect or if I've simply been too preoccupied to notice the thirst.

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    Wow.

    This is either the best stimulant to ever be released...or I'm being duped again.

    Maybe Bruce or Dan or someone from Gaspari can chime in, but my energy, alertness, focus, and appetite suppression are as high as I've ever experienced and it's been over 10 hours since I taken this.

    To be honest, I'm glad that this stuff enhances mood because a big part of me is concerned and hesitant.

    I know it's my first time taking this, but it's a stimulant and from my experiences stimulants are the one supplement that you can tell a ton from the first try. That's why they make for the best samples...you don't need to wait until day 10 to "feel" the effects.

    Well, after the first day I can say that this stuff is as good or better than Slim Xtreme. Every aspect - mood, energy, focus, appetite curbing - all rival or surpass Slim Xtreme. Throw in the fact that it's going as strong as ever ten hours later, and it's everything I ever hoped for: Slim Xtreme without the questionable ingredient.

    And I don't mean that as any sort of knock on Gaspari Nutrition and I feel bad even mentioning this especially since Bruce was kind enough to send me a free bottle but I have to be honest: When the accusations started to mount against Slim Xtreme, the biggest feeling I felt was not anger nor hostility (although those may have been the feelings that I most publicly displayed).

    The biggest feelings I felt were guilt and stupidity. I kept telling myself, "Idiot! Of course there had to be something wrong. You were feeling this all day high off one little pill when competing products couldn't produce these effects with multiple doses of multiple pills throughout the day. You should have been suspicious from day one! Now accusations are flying and the shit has been recalled!"

    So now, here I am in a similar situation and while I want more than anything for this to all be on the up and up I would feel like a complete jackass if I didn't take earlier steps, even if it's just researching and asking questions to calm my concerns.

    So hopefully some Gaspari people or some knowledgeable chemistry brains can drop by this log and shed some insight onto how this product is so effective.

    It contains Caffeine and 1,3-dymeth, but so does everything else in the world. Bruce mentioned an herbal extract that was new to sports supplements.

    Looking at the first ingredient in the prop blend, it's listed as Oxytropis falcate extract standardized for biogenic amine content. From what I can find (and to be perfectly honest I have no resources beyond Google and even that is subjected to my severe mental limitations on this subject matter), there are 14 different chemical constituents to oxytropis falcate.

    [Chemical constituents of Oxytropis falcate] [Zhongguo Zhong Yao Za Zhi. 2008] - PubMed result

    My uninformed guess is that the one that has "biogenic amine" properties to it is what the extract is being standardized for. Am I incorrect?

    So I add "biogenic amine" to my search but unfortunately mostly what I get is people discussing Spirodex. One guy with very few posts on Anabolic Minds suggests that the only one of those 14 compounds that is an amine is N-benzoyl-2-phenylethylamine.

    And then people starting replying to him like "Oh, you can't go accusing Gaspari of putting N-benzoyl-2-phenylethylamine in there. You have no basis for such accusations!" They say it in a manner as though that is a rotten allegation, but I also can't really find much in the way of that compound in terms of negative effects or illegality.

    I obviously can't trust "some guy" on a forum guessing what's in the product and I also can't trust "some people" responding to him as if his guess is some terrible accusation.

    So maybe Bruce or Dan can give some insight as to what's in this stuff?

    I apologize if I'm being too skeptical and please don't take this as an accusation. I genuinely just want to learn more about a subject where I'm admittedly really dumb. Also, like an abuse victim who flinches every time someone tries to hug them, I may be overly defensive as I've been down this road before.


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    The Great Cornholio Beejis60's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by placebro View Post
    I apologize if I'm being too skeptical and please don't take this as an accusation. I genuinely just want to learn more about a subject where I'm admittedly really dumb. Also, like an abuse victim who flinches every time someone tries to hug them, I may be overly defensive as I've been down this road before.
    Nothing wrong with that. Usually when something is too good to be true, it is. But lets hear from brucie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beejis60 View Post
    Nothing wrong with that. Usually when something is too good to be true, it is. But lets hear from brucie.
    What is it you want to hear, Beej? There is nothing illegal in Spirodex. You and Patrick are welcome to a bottle (I assume you will not want it direct from me - GNC will have inexpensive, 14 pill trial bottles for like $15 soon so you can get it there) and I am sure Patrick or you will dissolve/extract it and run it through GC/MS or LC/MS. None of the m/z weights will come back as any controlled or legend drug. Oxytropis falcate is an herb. It is a Chinese (if you consider Tibet & Mongolia to be part of China and I do) that has been used for centuries in a variety of ways. Most of the research is in Mandarin. I am fortunate enough to live with someone who can translate these studies for me. So it gives me a "leg up" as to what the Chinese found in this herb.

    It's in the food supply and in addition to that I have irrefutable data of it being sold as a dietary supplement since 1983 (pre-DSHEA). It's also got an NPN (#80006842) from Health Canada's National Product Directorate in their Licensed Health Products Database and is listed in Canada's National Health Products Ingredients Database where its suggested use is "traditional Chinese Medicine used to alleviate swelling and relieve pains. It's used for acute and chronic sprains and contusions, relieving stiff neck and joints, shoulder and lumbar muscle strain."

    That people overlooked it for other uses for many years and our team at Gaspari managed to find a different indication for it is just how it is guys. We found it. We tried it. We used it. We liked it. We put it in the product with the other listed ingredients.

    Because Oxytropis falcate is an herb that is DSHEA compliant then any constituent of it (not expressly banned as a controlled substance or used in some IND for a clinical research project) is OK to use so long as it is not chemically modified.





    I would remind you that under Section 201 of 21 U.S.C. 321 - 3. Definitions.

    (a) Definition of Certain Foods as Dietary Supplements. ) is amended by adding at the end the following:

    "(ff) The term "dietary supplement" -

    "(1) means a product (other than tobacco) intended to supplement the diet that bears or contains one or more of the following dietary ingredients:
    "(A) a vitamin;
    "(B) a mineral;
    "(C) an herb or other botanical;
    "(D) an amino acid;
    "(E) a dietary substance for use by man to supplement the diet by increasing the total dietary intake; or
    "(F) a concentrate, metabolite, constituent, extract, or combination of any ingredient described in clause (A), (B), (C), (D), or (E);

    (yellow emphasis is mine).

    There are MANY biogenic amines in this herb. MANY, MANY, MANY!

    That Dan and I spent the time to cull through them and find the ones that work and work together synergistically is just how it turned out. That they are 100% OK to use as dietary ingredients is also just how it turned out.

    That's what formulators do. We find new ingredients, new uses for existing ingredients and we "formulate."

    I'm not sure what all the hullaballoo is but we welcome any and all analytical testing of Spirodex (or any other Gaspari supplement) - this is on the up and up. It was vetted by a top notch attorney in the field from one of the biggest firms in Washington, DC (we retain counsel out of DC now that are all ex-FDA'er/ex-FTC'ers for the most part) and the product as well as the label and advertisements are compliant with United States law. We use the same firm (and same attorney in fact) as GNC corporate does.

    We have a large compliance packet for all out products (including Spirodex) and it seems that because some other companies have decided to take shortcuts with their stim products by doctoring them up with sibutramine or diphenylmethylpyrrolidine does not mean everyone does and does not mean you can't formulate a kick ass product without them either.

    I think Spirodex is an exceptional stim-type product. I am confident others will too. The team at Gaspari that worked on this for many months did a kick ass job with the formula, the packaging and production of it.

    I am hopeful people will find it to be safe and effective. We are open to all feedback though, positive or negative (as long as it is justified). And without a doubt it does not contain anything that is not within the realm of DSHEA 1994.

    Am I going to list all the amines extracted from Oxytropis falcate that we standardized for? Not a chance! Why would I do that? So our competitors can clone us?!? LOL! Hint: There are many more amines in Oxytropis falcate than the one everyone seems to be looking at.
    But you better speak Mandarin or be able to use Babblefish as an expert if you hope to find them!

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    I'm not the one. placebro's Avatar
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    Thanks for the response. I can't sleep. In fairness, any time I started SlimX after a 2 or more week break I would stay awake for three days.

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    Senior Member rippedx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by placebro View Post
    Took my first dose about 45 minutes ago. If it makes sense, I suddenly feel both more alert plus more relaxed.

    Today is my first day back to work after a two week vacation from a management job so for the last 4 hours I've been hit with a lot of stresses and frustrations.

    I spent the last four hours the way I generally spend my time at work: mentally plotting the manner and methods in which I will systematically murder everyone within 100 yards of me.

    But I suddenly feel calm now.

    At the time of this writing, the body count remains zero.

    Stay tuned.
    Was this 1 pill or 2?

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    Excited to try it.......have a full day tomorrow....
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    Quote Originally Posted by rippedx View Post
    Was this 1 pill or 2?
    One, and I'm a stim junkie. I still can't sleep. Hopefully I'll fall asleep soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by placebro View Post
    One, and I'm a stim junkie. I still can't sleep. Hopefully I'll fall asleep soon.
    Maybe you should cut back to 1/2 tablet per day if you are really sensitive to stims then.

    Some people need to take 1 pills, others 2 and perhaps others get buy on 1/2.

    Everyone is different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BK@gasparinutrition View Post
    Maybe you should cut back to 1/2 tablet per day if you are really sensitive to stims then.

    Some people need to take 1 pills, others 2 and perhaps others get buy on 1/2.

    Everyone is different.
    I'm usually the opposite and need to take double doses. I've had a history of sleeping problems though so I honestly expected this from an "all day" stim but I just wanted to log it since that's what was asked.

    I eventually fell asleep and slept rather soundly until barking dogs woke me up 4 hours later and I couldn't fall back asleep.

    On the plus side, I now get to find out how Spirodex helps with a long day where I don't have much rest going in.

    I really love the effects from the first day. The sleep thing I can get over because even if I went an entire month without one mg of caffeine I'd still probably have 3-5 nights that month where I absolutely could not sleep.

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    Moderator Grambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BK@gasparinutrition View Post
    Maybe you should cut back to 1/2 tablet per day if you are really sensitive to stims then.

    Some people need to take 1 pills, others 2 and perhaps others get buy on 1/2.

    Everyone is different.
    Will say it in my log too but I really like the pharmaceutical look you went with for Spiro. The bottle is VERY close to real RX bottles and even the tabs are scored and marked, pretty cool.
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    Will be tuned in on both places.

    Reading this, I am going to start mine at 1/2 dose.

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    Bruce,

    Thank you again for taking the time to reply and it seems as though you've provided a lot of information as to how these ingredients are indeed legal. Given the size of Gaspari and the microscope the company tends to be placed under, it would be difficult for me to imagine the product containing any illegal, non-DSHEA compliant ingredients. Of greater concern than the legality of the ingredients are the effects. I'd imagine that since these substances were relatively obscure (despite their previous use in other industries), there isn't exactly a lot of information and data available especially in English. The effects I felt from Spirodex were very desirable. My biggest issues with Slim Xtreme occurred after I discontinued use. Is it fair for me to not expect similar with this product? Additionally, what do recommend in terms of time frames for continued usage?

    I hate to sound like I'm pessimistic; to the contrary, after one day I am really sold on this product. I guess part of me just feels that it's almost too good to be true but again that points toward some previous bad experiences on my part.

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    when you say stim junkie do you mean you take stims everyday? like atleast a few cups of coffee everyday? and prewo a bunch of caffeine, 1,3dmaa, yhcl, ephedrine, basically a nice stim cocktail of whatever you have, or whatever is in the prewo you are nommin on?

    I too am a stim junkie and will be following this.....I have an unusually high tolerance and am curious how this affects others that share my same affliction

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavydeadlifts View Post
    when you say stim junkie do you mean you take stims everyday? like atleast a few cups of coffee everyday? and prewo a bunch of caffeine, 1,3dmaa, yhcl, ephedrine, basically a nice stim cocktail of whatever you have, or whatever is in the prewo you are nommin on?

    I too am a stim junkie and will be following this.....I have an unusually high tolerance and am curious how this affects others that share my same affliction
    By stim junkie I mean that I am running some sort of stim product at least 80% of the time. It means that unless I'm making a conscious effort to cycle off for a few weeks, I usually have a few caffeine containing drinks throughout the day as well. It means that most days I take some stim concoction that includes at least 200-300mg caffeine upon waking and another dose in the early afternoon. It means that most days at around 2:30 PM and 9:00 PM I am completely crashed. It means that unless I have just taken a forced break, I am generally using 2-3x the recommended dose of a given stim product.

    It means that there have been plenty of times where I have consumed over 300mg of caffeine and within an hour been sound asleep for 9 straight hours.

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    The Great Cornholio Beejis60's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BK@gasparinutrition View Post
    What is it you want to hear, Beej? There is nothing illegal in Spirodex. You and Patrick are welcome to a bottle (I assume you will not want it direct from me - GNC will have inexpensive, 14 pill trial bottles for like $15 soon so you can get it there) and I am sure Patrick or you will dissolve/extract it and run it through GC/MS or LC/MS. None of the m/z weights will come back as any controlled or legend drug. Oxytropis falcate is an herb. It is a Chinese (if you consider Tibet & Mongolia to be part of China and I do) that has been used for centuries in a variety of ways. Most of the research is in Mandarin. I am fortunate enough to live with someone who can translate these studies for me. So it gives me a "leg up" as to what the Chinese found in this herb.
    I'm not implying anything bad or illegal. I was just stating if it's too good to be true, it usually is in a response to what placebro said. I've never tried this nor SlimX so I cannot comment, however I know placebro has...
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    style="font-family: Verdana">For the girls and hypersensitive boys- the statement(s) made above do not not necessarily reflect the official opinion and stance of E-pharm. If you have an issue, take it up with me and don't cry about it to others.



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    Quote Originally Posted by placebro View Post
    By stim junkie I mean that I am running some sort of stim product at least 80% of the time. It means that unless I'm making a conscious effort to cycle off for a few weeks, I usually have a few caffeine containing drinks throughout the day as well. It means that most days I take some stim concoction that includes at least 200-300mg caffeine upon waking and another dose in the early afternoon. It means that most days at around 2:30 PM and 9:00 PM I am completely crashed. It means that unless I have just taken a forced break, I am generally using 2-3x the recommended dose of a given stim product.

    It means that there have been plenty of times where I have consumed over 300mg of caffeine and within an hour been sound asleep for 9 straight hours.
    Lulz you sir are on my level

    Now I can actually give this review credit

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    This stuff really has me buzzing. Last night at 3 AM, I was watching Entourage, reading ESPN TrueHoop, participating in some m4m chat room with nni, and playing Words with Friends - all at the same time.

    Well, it's day 2.

    Appetite
    I only got 4 hours of sleep last night but I feel fine. I actually noticed increased energy and a complete lack of appetite this morning even before taking my dose. As a former superfatty (I once weighed double what I weigh now) and a current semifatty (right now I'm about 20 lbs higher than where I'd like to be), my appetite has always been huge. Times of cutting take a great deal of discipline and a lot of effort. Times of bulking happen on accident. As a result I'm very sensitive to anything that has appetite suppression properties.

    I've run ECA and Slim Xtreme and they both worked very well in that regard. This is even better. When ECA or SX were really working well for me, I had to remind myself to eat, but even when I reminded myself I was just like, "awesome, I can eat now!" With this stuff it's like, "shit, do I have to?"

    This stuff destroys my appetite. Which is odd because the appetite suppression benefits only received a casual, passing mention from Bruce when he initially described the product in the lengthy manner that only he can. This is great for me but it might be a turn-off to others who aren't looking for that aspect.

    Thermogenic
    Yesterday I didn't really notice any thermo effects but I mainly spent the day doing paperwork with the air conditioning blasting. Today, I spontaneously decided to move my desk, printer, and filing cabinet to the opposite end of the store. It was a good idea but it literally came from nowhere and I just started doing it. It was a relatively menial task and the air conditioning is still on full blast, but I was pouring sweat while doing it to the point where employees were asking if something was wrong.

    Libido
    Very strong stims generally lower my libido. I may be odd in this regard as it's a side effect I don't see often reported. I actually like this effect because it doesn't hurt me when it counts but it does eliminate a lot of the annoying urges during inconvenient times. I've noticed that I haven't imagined banging the hell out of any female customers yet this week. I thought that perhaps spoke more for the quality of females thus far but then I checked my browser history and noticed that not a single pornographic site has been loaded this week.

    Libido control is not something most people look for or want, but I welcome it and since I'm experiencing it I figured I should note it here.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by placebro View Post
    Bruce,

    Thank you again for taking the time to reply and it seems as though you've provided a lot of information as to how these ingredients are indeed legal. Given the size of Gaspari and the microscope the company tends to be placed under, it would be difficult for me to imagine the product containing any illegal, non-DSHEA compliant ingredients. Of greater concern than the legality of the ingredients are the effects. I'd imagine that since these substances were relatively obscure (despite their previous use in other industries), there isn't exactly a lot of information and data available especially in English. The effects I felt from Spirodex were very desirable. My biggest issues with Slim Xtreme occurred after I discontinued use. Is it fair for me to not expect similar with this product? Additionally, what do recommend in terms of time frames for continued usage?

    I hate to sound like I'm pessimistic; to the contrary, after one day I am really sold on this product. I guess part of me just feels that it's almost too good to be true but again that points toward some previous bad experiences on my part.
    Can definitely understand your concern, especially after being on of the front runners in the SX issue. But I agree with your post, I think with every product Gaspari releases there are several people who will try to prove it is somehow spiked/non-compliant, so I really don't think they would take that risk, but nothing wrong with being cautious with your body and health
    Humility and the fear of the Lord bring wealth and honor and life.



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